Michael Regan 00:00

I had todo everything that I could to uphold the mission of the agency, which is toprotect public health. When most people think about EPA, they think about theenvironment. I think about EPA, it's really a public health agency. A

 Nico Johnson 00:19

lot offolks want to characterize clean energy and climate as an existential threat ina fight, and I'm not going to say that they aren't, but when it comes rightdown to the work that we're trying to accomplish, it is about establishinglong-term healthful environments for our families and for the generations tocome, few people have been able to tie the work that we're doing in energy andclimate to public health, like our next guest. Michael Regan is the formeradministrator of the EPA and is also a fellow North Carolinian. It's awesome tohave you here, Michael, with Jigger and I on this collaboration podcast betweenSun Cast and Energy Empire. Well, thank

 Michael Regan 01:03

you allfor having me. I'm a big fan of the podcast, and you

 Jigar Shah 01:07

finallyinvited me. That's right, you've made it. We need enough practice reps beforewe got superstars on. You know, I was gonna say, I

 Nico Johnson 01:14

feellike we've made it now. So

 Michael Regan 01:15

that'sgreat. I mentioned that you grew up here in North Carolina, you know, yourfather is a veteran National Guard, worked in agriculture, helping farmers takecare of their land. You grew up like I did, hunting and fishing, and reallyunderstanding the stewardship of the land. Did you talk about what it was likegrowing up in that world? I had a blast. I grew up hunting and fishing with myfather and grandfather, and you know it wasn't just sort of being out innature, hunting and fishing, it was being with my father and grandfather, anopportunity to bond and to learn and hear the stories, and so I really valuedthat time, it was very precious to me, and growing up I did have some issues,some respiratory issues that were exacerbated by pollution.

 Nico Johnson 02:07

Yeah,

 Michael Regan 02:07

and whenthe ozone was really intense, those ozone action days, yeah, those were timesthat I could not be outdoors with my father and grandfather. So you can imagineas a kid wanting to be out there with them, and having to sit in the house,that was no fun. So, at a very early age, I started to make the connectionbetween public health, personally, and nature and the environment. But I had awonderful childhood, rural Eastern North Carolina. Yeah, and I really try toalways think back to what that meant to me. Yeah, and how do I incorporate thatinto my service?

 Jigar Shah 02:49

Yeah, Ithink when you think about, you know, the origin story of the Clean Air Act,Clean Water Act, right, the Cayuga River being on fire, you know, 20 millionAmericans, I mean, 10% of the entire US population participated in the firstEarth Day. Yes, right. I mean, clearly there were a lot of people who had thatsimilar sort of life story to you around the fact that something was clearlywrong, right, that we were out of balance in a way, right, and that we wereprioritizing, you know, economic growth over human health. Right, talk moreabout your, you know, the bad air days, and like, you know, how did you make aconnection between that experience for you and what was causing it?

 Michael Regan 03:38

Yes,that's a very good question. It took a while for me to really make thatconnection, but in high school, you know, as the chemistry and biology classesbecome more intense, you start to ask yourself some questions, and you start tounderstand how these things connect, and it's at that point where you reallystart to talk to others, and at that time in life, we didn't really have thevocabulary to understand environmental justice. We just knew what was happeningto us as individuals, but then you talk to others in your community, and thenyou realize, hey, this is happening more frequently than one might think. Ipursued an environmental science degree at Ant State University, and it'sreally there that I started to understand the connectivity to pollution, publichealth, and the impact to natural resources. I think it's something that hasalways been a focus, because it's so personal, but again, you quickly realizeit's not just about us as individuals. You start to talk to others and see,quite frankly, that there are some that have it much worse

 Nico Johnson 04:47

than

 Michael Regan 04:48

you do.And when I look back and I think about some of the surrounding communitieswhere I grew up, there were a lot of communities that were much closer to a hoglagoon than we were. We're much closer to a coal ash pond than we were, mostmuch closer to an industrial operation than we were.

 Nico Johnson 05:07

Yeah,

 Michael Regan 05:07

and it'sat that juncture you start to think, wow, what if I live that close to some ofthose operations? I would have been in much worse condition, and that's wheresome of the passion comes from.

 Nico Johnson 05:20

Now, youmentioned coal ash. A lot of folks now rightly know the work that you did atthe EPA. Before that, you were running North Carolina's Department ofEnvironmental Quality, won a landmark case against Duke 80 million tons of coalash as an as a judgment. That alone must have felt very sort of vindicating andhonorable in the work. I'm curious, the amount of work that you did that reallyis it changed the way chemical companies and utilities think about how theyhave to interact with communities. Yes, is it's transformative, not just forthe state of North Carolina, but other states that are watching and

 Michael Regan 06:00

learningfrom it, where did that confidence come from to attack this kind of a socialjustice issue? Well, I have to tell you, while I always had a personalintrinsic motivation, the day I was being sworn in as Secretary of theDepartment of Environmental Quality, I bumped into a former Governor, Jim Hunt,yeah. Who told me that if I really wanted to know the state, that I needed tovisit all 100 counties. Yeah, we did 90 counties, and then COVID hit.

 Nico Johnson 06:32

Yeah,

 Michael Regan 06:32

butduring that tour and visiting those 90 counties, when you sit down in theliving room with the mother whose child has asthma that's exacerbated by acement kiln.

 Nico Johnson 06:45

Yeah,

 Michael Regan 06:46

or ifyou're talking to some grandparents whose water wells have been contaminated bycoal ash,

 Nico Johnson 06:52

if

 Michael Regan 06:53

youcare, it's really hard to look away, and so spending time in the communitieswith people in their living rooms, one on one, having the personalconversations led me to believe that I had to do everything that I could touphold the mission of the agency, which is to protect public health.

 Nico Johnson 07:14

Right,

 Michael Regan 07:15

whenmost people think about EPA, they think about the environment. I think aboutEPA, it's really a public health agency, first.

 Nico Johnson 07:22

Yeah,

 Michael Regan 07:23

and sostaying connected in that way really incentivized me to push as hard aspossible, working with the former Attorney General, who is now Governor ofNorth Carolina, Josh Stein,

 Nico Johnson 07:37

yeah,

 Michael Regan 07:38

and theDepartment of Justice. We pursued the largest coal ash settlement in UnitedStates history.

 Nico Johnson 07:44

Yeah,

 Michael Regan 07:45

I thinkDuke Energy understood that they needed to put that chapter behind them, sothat we all could collectively focus on clean energy, and they could not focuson a clean energy future with that dark cloud hanging over them, and we neededto rectify the significant issues that they caused in so many communities allacross North Carolina.

 Jigar Shah 08:08

Icontinue to struggle, though, with, you know, the fact that the EPA really wascreated around, as you suggested, all of these communities were in some waysforced to live next to a lot of this pollution, and there was a responsibilityto, to find a balance. Yes, right. And you know, when communities tested theirown water, did something to, like, you know, prove that there was maybe someharm there, that there was a responsive EPA to, like, actually help themthrough that process. I do think that there's been a feeling behalf of many ofthese communities, and it bubbled up a lot in the wake of George Floyd's death,right going into the 2020 election, that EPA was really focused on shuttingdown coal plants, but not necessarily focused on serving those communities. I'mwondering whether you heard the same thing from those communities, and whether,like, while you were administrator, like, they felt more heard, that theprocesses felt more transparent, like, I mean, what is it that, like, what isthe relationship now between those communities and those groups and EPA?

 Michael Regan 09:20

Well,I'll tell you, I learned a ton from the Governor Hunt suggestion, and so when Ibecame EPA administrator within a couple of months, we launched a Journey toJustice tour.

 Nico Johnson 09:33

Right,it

 Michael Regan 09:33

startedwith Mississippi, Louisiana, and Texas, but by the time we finished with theadministration. We had toured the entire country, including Puerto Rico andAlaska.

 Nico Johnson 09:45

It

 Michael Regan 09:46

reshapedmy agenda, of course. The president had an agenda, but spending time in thosecommunities, whether you're in McDowell County, West Virginia, or LowndesCounty. The Alabama, when you see straight piping out the side of a house intothe creek, where people are getting their water, when you understand the numberof petrochemical facilities that are lay lined against, lined up againstcommunities in Louisiana, that's where you start to really focus the agency'smission, and we're supposed to provide equal protection under the law foreveryone, irrespective of political affiliation, how much money they have intheir pocket, or the color of their skin, and so I will tell you that the folksin Alaska, in Puerto Rico, in the south, in the southwest, really helped meunderstand that you have to be able to walk and chew gum at the same time. Youcan't solely focus on coal plants, you have to focus on all pollution sources,and you have to prioritize the communities that are most vulnerable, and Ibelieve that's what we did, and not only do I believe it, we received billionsof dollars from Congress to pursue these actions. Yeah, and to answer yourquestion directly, over the four-year period I was EPA administrator, wedeveloped relationships with communities that had never existed before. Weworked very hard to earn their trust, and right now it's a significantdisappointment that they are not having the same seat at the table that we gavethem.

 Nico Johnson 11:30

Administrator,it is. I share that sense of disappointment, and I'm sure that we can dig in alittle deeper on kind of what you're seeing now from the sidelines before we gothere, and I appreciate you tying, connecting the work that you did, visitingall the counties to the journey of justice. I'd like a little bit moreunderstanding of how that showed up in regulations that you wrote. How did itaffect the work more than the dollars that were funded flowing in?

 Michael Regan 12:00

How didit show up in legislation during your time? Well, I can tell you what the firstplace it showed up in was enforcement. Yeah, we were not taking action in thesecommunities from an enforcement standpoint like we should. The data and therecord from the enforcement action further substantiated the direction weneeded to go in many regulations to ensure that everyone was properlyprotected, and there were some flaws in our regulations that left certain datasets out or certain people behind,

 Nico Johnson 12:30

yeah,

 Michael Regan 12:31

and soas we pursued regulations for certain chemicals, as we looked at the emissionscoming from petrochemical facilities, as we looked at, you know, our naturalgas facilities, our coal facilities. We were able to put certain people andcertain data sets and certain things into context and demand that certaintechnologies be applied. It was never about shutting down any facility, it wasabout controlling the pollution and the emissions. One regulation that I willpoint out is a regulation focused on the petrochemical industry.

 Nico Johnson 13:08

Yeah,

 Michael Regan 13:08

andthere is a community in Louisiana, in one of the parishes, where we reduce therisk of elevated cancer by over 96% with one regulation, and that regulationreally brought into focus how we have been missing the mark

 Jigar Shah 13:27

for somany years. Yeah, I mean, I think that, like, when you think about what thisnew administration, you know, the press and the narrative that's coming out ofit, around the endangerment, filing, you know, find finding the coal plantwork, etc. You know, give me some more information on what they're doing on theenforcement side of things, because I don't see that in the press. I don't feellike that's part of the narrative. I don't feel like folks are talking aboutit. I mean, are they rolling back enforcement? Are they rolling back, you know,some of the good work that's done on clean air and clean water?

 Michael Regan 14:00

Absolutely,we are seeing a retreat from the leadership position that EPA should play theendangerment finding argument really from this administration isn't about thescience, they are stipulating that it's out of EPA jurisdiction to controlpollution that impacts public health. Yeah, that's mind blowing. So we're noteven talking about an attack on the science per se, we're talking about anattack on the agency's mission. So, yes, we are seeing a retreat in regulatoryoversight, and we're absolutely seeing a retreat in enforcement of the lawsthat are on the books that are supposed to protect the least amongst us is verytroubling, and I will say, because most people will think that what we did waspolitical, but whether you were in McDowell County, West Virginia, which was avery. Red county majority population that are white or Lowndes County, Alabama,they were facing the same issues, and so when we have this retreat like we'reseeing now, I can assure you it is just as much, if not more impactful to redcounties as it is to blue counties, you really can't put borders aroundpollution and public health protection, and I don't think we should pretendthat you can. No, people do care about the health and safety of their family.Absolutely, so much of what you fought for is getting rolled back right beforeyour eyes. What do you think is really gone that we might can't, might not getback. What can we salvage, and more importantly, what can justice communitiesdo to have a voice at this time? Well, I think we have to remain optimistic.And under the Biden administration, not only did we build trust withcommunities that we never had before, through grants, through connectivity, webuilt infrastructure,

 Nico Johnson 16:01

yeah,

 Michael Regan 16:02

thatnever existed before. Yes, that infrastructure, that connectivity, thatleadership is paused for now, but there's a foundation there that will bepoised for the next opportunity. I do believe that we've lost a lot of time. Ido believe that a lot of people will get hurt.

 Nico Johnson 16:23

Yeah,

 Michael Regan 16:24

I dobelieve we've lost a lot of talent, but regulations, as you both know, are notsomething you turn on and turn off. You have to go through a process, and Ithink we need to be prepared to litigate the process by which these regulationsare unlawfully being terminated.

 Nico Johnson 16:43

Yeah,

 Michael Regan 16:44

and Ithink we really need to litigate the lack of equal protection under the law forall people all across this country, and I don't see the American people beingprotected adequately

 Jigar Shah 17:00

with theassault that we're seeing on certain regulations and certain policies, I dothink it's blowing back on the administration now, though. It does feel like Ithink part of what you're saying, I think is that there is like this sort ofbusiness as usual approach that they're sort of trying to go back to, but Ithink that that's also hurting them on the data center side, so when you lookat, like, yeah, this rate payer protection pledge, right? I mean, part of thatis, well, you can meet the pledge by building new coal plants or new naturalgas plants, right, to support these, these new data centers, but you can alsodo it through deployment of batteries, deployment of resiliency technologies,deployment of energy efficiency, weatherization in people's homes. Right? Imean, I guess what I'm trying to figure out a little bit, though, is that partof what you did as administrator was to, you know, try to facilitate adifferent type of conversation, one where you could get a win-win on two orthree different fronts just by spending a little more time listening and a lotless time talking, and I'm curious, like that approach, though. Seems like it'srelevant in this moment where you know Duke is trying to raise rates 15% in thestate of North Carolina, because they want to use business as usual techniques,and they don't instead want to lean into battery storage or lean into othertechnologies. Like, tell me a little bit more about the process, and what welearned about the process of being more inclusive, and whether that really getsyou to a better outcome.

 Michael Regan 18:30

Itabsolutely gets you to a better outcome. People, Washington DC, and sometimesRaleigh seems to think that communities are anti growth or anti business, thatis absolutely a myth. Folks want jobs, folks want jobs. Yeah, they want astrong tax base, so that they can have good schools, and, and, and, you know,opportunities to go to a museum or see a symphony. Yeah, and so they want tosee growth, they just want to see growth that is not disrespectful to them andtheir culture, and so through conversation I found it's the easiest, easiestpath to make the process more efficient, and yes, you have to tweak your planshere and there, but at the end of the day, you can get the project done, aswe're seeing with data centers, I believe that this country is approaching thistopic haphazardly, and the constituency is too educated to stand by and notunderstand how to stop things. Oh, did you know that the latest poll numbersactually show that data centers are more hated than ice, than ice, than ice. Imean, you have to really screw up the narrative and communication, you do to bepolling that low, you know, like, but, like, yeah. But keep going. Sorry. Well,I think that what happens is when anytime you try to shove any. Down anybody'sthroat, they're resistant, and I think you have to acknowledge the potentialnegative aspects of any construction project, whether that be a data center ora natural gas combined cycle project or a solar project. A construction site isa construction site in the eyes of someone who owns property, but when you goin and have a conversation about how it will be done, take in some ideas, seeif you can tweak that. I guarantee you, most communities will see a pathforward that we all could work with. This administration, time and time again,is fumbling that ball, people's voices matter, and I think as it relates todata centers, we're not even getting to the communities talking about thenegative environmental impacts, potentially people have educated themselves onrates and affordability, and they are protesting these facilities based on anantiquated system that we have in place to create and generate electricity inthis country, especially here in North Carolina. I think Duke is is learning abig lesson, and they should.

 Nico Johnson 21:14

AdministratorRegan, thank you for all the insight into what it takes to really hold in highregard the public health of all our communities. North Carolina, I'm sure,across the country, is seen as a very red state, but in fact it's a very purplestate. There's a lot of need for bipartisan action. You spent your whole careerlearning to navigate and in some ways straddle that divide on behalf of cleanair and clean water. I wonder what you've learned that as an industry fromenergy, even AI, and as communities, we can carry forward that can help breakthrough what has been a very partisan battle. Yes, to to elevate these topicsin the public narrative as something that is good for the general good, ratherthan using them as the whipping post for political gain,

 Michael Regan 22:11

youknow. When Governor Cooper nominated me as for secretary,

 Nico Johnson 22:15

yeah,

 Michael Regan 22:16

therewas Republican super majority in the North Carolina General Assembly, and I gota unanimous confirmation. Senator Richard Burr and Senator Thom Tillisintroduced me to the Senate when I was nominated for EP administrator forPresident Biden, and I got a more than 60 plus vote from the United StatesSenate. I've always understood that Republicans and Democrats are people, andmost people want similar things, and so I believe that in our conversations wehave to talk about the benefits of what we're doing to all sides. When I thinkabout clean energy, I think about national security just as much as I thinkabout global competition, just as much as I think about public health andprotecting communities, we want a competitive America.

 Nico Johnson 23:08

Yeah,

 Michael Regan 23:08

we wantan America that works for everyone, and we all know that the best technologiestied to our markets, tied to American ingenuity, we cannot run anyone in theworld, and we can do that without sacrificing our community. So, when we talkto Democrats and Republicans, and we talk about energy and infrastructure, Ithink we have to talk about the fragility of our energy grid, our waterinfrastructure, and what that does to us as a nation. And then we have to thinkabout what are the solutions.

 Nico Johnson 23:41

Yeah,

 Michael Regan 23:42

and ifyou look at the cost-effective solutions, the most efficient solutions, thesolutions that are winning the day around the world, they're the solutions thatjust happen to fall into our category of being called clean.

 Nico Johnson 23:54

Yeah,

 Michael Regan 23:55

you canhave that as a lead headline for climate, you can have it as a lead headlinefor communities, or you can have it as a lead headline for globalcompetitiveness. I believe it's all three. Well, thank you for being here. Yourmoral clarity is truly inspiring. So, such a pleasure to have you on. Thankyou. Thanks, Michael. Thank you.

 Nico Johnson 24:17

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