Lauren Glickman  00:00

It is solar and farming, and the two really should and can be natural partners. They need sunlight, they need land, and they need long-term planning. So that synergy is natural, and it's one we should be embracing.

Nico Johnson  00:14

Hey, Solar Warrior, welcome back. Today I'm sitting down with my good friend Lauren Glickman. Lauren's been on SunCast a few times before, and as a SEA board member at large and longtime solar and clean energy comms expert and communicator, she has a particular opinion about what it takes to get not just things done, but how to tell that story. She's been on the communication circuit lately, in a way that I haven't seen from her in quite a while. The reason is farmland, specifically the argument that the way our entire industry talks about solar and farmland is frankly wrong-not wrong in a nitpicky sense, wrong at the foundation, here's the setup. For years, our defense has been that solar saves farms, that it keeps land in the family, and it keeps it in agricultural use instead of losing it to something else. Now, that's a great argument, and it's true. Lauren's point is that it's a small part of the truth, and it's still fighting on the other side's turf because it concedes that solar is somehow taking something away, but she read a SEA analysis recently on Prime farmland, and the number in it reframed the whole thing for her, and hopefully for you. For every one acre of farmland with solar on it in this country, 43 acres are sitting fallow. That's right. Not paved over. Not turned into subdivisions. Not turned into golf courses. Just abandoned because nobody can afford to farm them. I mean, everybody has heard the age-old story of families, children going into other industries and leaving the farming or whatever their family's trade is. So, Lauren's reframe is this: Solar isn't saving farmland. Solar is actually creating new farmland, and she's got a filled-in gravel pit over in Colchester, Vermont, that's now pasture for a flock of sheep to show you what she means. We get into what actually counts as agriculture, where the real research is happening and where it's not, and what the message pillars for this industry ought to be, if we want communities to really believe us. One note before we start: this conversation ran a little bit longer than I thought that we might, so I've split it into two parts. Today is how we frame this narrative. How do we talk about this, and where we've got to get it right? And on Thursday, Lauren will be back for the policy side of the playbook. What's happening in Virginia and Maryland, and what developers actually need to do when they walk into a county meeting? Let's get into it, Lauren. You've been on the communications circuit lately in a way that I haven't seen from you in quite some time, and I'm not surprised because we've known each other a while, and in our private conversations, I often get to experience just how passionate you are about this concept of agrivoltaics, specifically around farmland stewardship and changing the narrative about how we talk about the impact of solar in communities, and I wonder when you look at what is now kind of a veritable debate, especially in the Northeast where Encore does most of its work between solar and farmland today. What do you think we're actually trying to solve for?

Lauren Glickman  03:35

I think there are a couple of problems or challenges that I think the industry is trying to overcome. You know, we have grown so much as an industry over the past. I would even say just two decades, but even the last five to 10 years. And when you grow and mature as an industry, it means you're in more places. And when you're in more places, you have more customers, you have more neighbors, and you have just a great. There's no way to diminish the growing exposure and impact you have. And so, with that, even if you are, unless you're Dolly Parton, you're not going to be universally beloved. And so, with the more people you reach and the more people you come in, you know, into contact with, the increase there is to the exposure of people who are going to disagree with you and who are going to oppose, and so that number is growing, and it is something that so community opposition is, you know, I would say one of the top issues the industry is facing right now. And in the more communities you're in, the more people that are, I mean, the more people that might support you as well, but you're always going to have that counterbalance. And unfortunately, there, you know, I would say even prior to me joining the industry, there was a false narrative that put out there that it was solar versus farming.

Nico Johnson  04:55

Yeah,

Lauren Glickman  04:55

and that narrative has it's a tale. As old as time at this point, and so I think the thing that we are trying to solve for at this point is that's a false narrative. So it can, you know, it is solar and farming, and the two really should and can be natural partners. They need sunlight, they need land, and they need long time long term planning, so that synergy is natural, and it's one we should be embracing.

Nico Johnson  05:25

Yeah, it's interesting the dichotomy of either or. For a long time, the industry's defense has been that solar can help keep farms in the family and keep that land in agricultural use instead of going some other use. We talked a lot about that in an interview I did with our friend Rebecca Pierce up in New York does grazing on some of Encore's properties. It seems though that this narrative is not the most useful way to frame the opportunity. What other frames are are surfacing then about this dual use opportunity rather than the dichotomy of either or? One

Lauren Glickman  06:01

of the things that I have become increasingly excited about. There was a recent study. It actually, so Sia did some great analysis looking at prime farmland use, and it was life changing for me. I actually think their top frame feeds a little into this either or, but when you actually look at the data, there's a new frame that emerges, which is the biggest threat to farmland is farming that land that's idle. So it's like farmers are unable to afford to farm, and so that land, and they don't want to sell it. They're 43 acres of land that are sitting abandoned, not being not urban sprawl, not golf courses, not they're just it's fallow at this point. Land for every one acre there is a solar on farm.

Nico Johnson  06:57

Wow!

Lauren Glickman  06:58

And so that so the this frame that I think we can expand to is there is an opportunity to turn those 40 pastureland to there's an opportunity actually to create new farmland. So we farm, so we grazed on one of our sites at Encore that was a filled in former gravel pit in Colchester, Vermont, and that no agricultural use, right? And now it's pastureland for Lewis Fox and agrivoltaic solution, and so that's new farmland. So I think that there still is an opportunity to preserve existing farmland and to help farmers keep, but now there's an opportunity to bring farmland back at a time when we're really seeing a huge decline in the, you know, in pastureland and farmland and all those things. Rebecca actually makes a really good case that when you just define something as prime ag or prime farmland, if no one can afford to farm it, that soil distinction doesn't really matter. So there's a big campaign about how solar is saving farms, and to me, solar is creating new farmland. And so that is, I think, an expanded frame that I don't think is fully embraced by the industry at large. But that, to me, I saw that there's a, I mean, there's a graph. I'm sure we could link to it in the the notes of this show, and I was just like, "Wow, look at the square for abandoned farmland! I was like, "That's the low hanging fruit at this point too, because we want to bring it back.

Nico Johnson  08:31

Lauren, that example is really for me something that's very palpable around how we talk about what is agriculture and agricultural activity. I grew up in a a farm town, and I have a I think a more expanded version in my mind as a family of of cattle ranchers. Certainly, folks down in Argentina or Texas, where animal husbandry is in fact farming and is more prof is more prominent, have the understanding that like farmland is all not always a piece of a parcel of land where you plant a seed and a thing comes out of it for the purpose of like human consumption, and I wonder if you have a comment around that. But I'm also struck by you saying that this report changed your life. That that's a visceral feeling. So I just want to give you a moment to to respond to that distinction of what is agricultural activity,

Lauren Glickman  09:24

it was flooring to me to look at that graph because I have long been a proponent of this idea of dual use, and that you know I know I I'm not unaware to the struggles and the challenges that are facing American and domestic farming operations, I go. I'm a regular purchaser at the farmers market. I can see, you know, the joy and appreciation that I. That's where I get my eggs. That's where, you know, that those people feel great when they are, you know, they. Me and they're selling me, and I pay a premium for it, and that helps them make ends meet. So none of that was new to me. I guess I was just surprised to see how much farmland is just sitting idle. I would say my real visceral change was actually being out on that site that I described the first. So I knew that Encore had a site there in that area. I knew a little bit of the backstory, and it turns out when I was living in Vermont, that site was actually a mile from where my apartment was. And so when our grazer reached out and said that he was going to be on site to let the sheep out, to let the girls out, I was like, of course I want to come see this, and I went out every day.

Nico Johnson  10:42

No way!

Lauren Glickman  10:43

And when Lewis started telling me about how beneficial grazing it, like this forages for his flock, and I was like, "This is great! And you know, I I saw that they were ballasted, so I knew that this was a compromised ground underneath. And so then when I saw the report about it, I was like, "Wow, we turned something that had no use for the landowner. It was literally like, you know, as I said, abandoned, filled in gravel from building a parking garage somewhere else in in the Burlington area, and now it's allowing this farmer to grow have more head of sheep in his flock. It actually for his story, which this isn't the case across the board. He for that particular site was using his. I was calling them his retired his retired lammers. His but the industry is his dried ewes, so his sheep that are no longer producing lamb for him that normally would likely be cold or cost they're actually now our vegetative managers so they actually got a second act or encore for them a second career as grazers and they're bringing in income for him so I was like I mean wow look at all these like verticals and synergies that are there, and then the new lens was like, and this is on land that was never intended to be pastureland, to be agricultural. It was just basically, I don't want to say wasted space because I don't want to say that like any place in this is like wait a waste, but it did not have a monetary value, and now it's generating solar for Saint Michael's College in Colchester. That's where the energy is going, and so it's got that value. He's allowing him to grow his flock. It's allowing him to have a dedicated stream of income for a section of his flock that normally would just be an expense. Yeah, and it works forever, and and it gets great again. It gets grazed well, and we're going to see that not all formally like compromised land is suitable for grazing. There are a lot of areas where that doesn't work, but we have some other gravel pits that are also or formal gravel pits that are going to work well for grazing going forward. And again, those sites have no they they have no better use for anything, let alone an agricultural use. So being able to convert that to pastureland, I think, is a real win for the local community, for the farmer, and for agricultural heritage that we're trying to protect. I

Nico Johnson  13:13

love it, and I'm a big fan of permaculture, and I'm stunned by the statistic 43 to one. So it represents a lot of opportunity, in particular for folks in the agri-food taste community. And I'm less knowledgeable about the level of research going into it. Lauren, is there specific research or operating data showing what happens to agricultural productivity when solar and agriculture are combined.

Lauren Glickman  13:42

There is research being done, and a vast majority of it is being done by academic institutions. Cornell is heavily engaged in this. The state colleges in New Jersey are studying this. There are government agencies involved. The National Lab of the Rockies has work that's being done, and I would say there is a growing interest in it's not necessarily private sector, but more philanthropic work. But then also studies being done by people who are trying to farm, who are doing. I mean, they're smaller sample sizes, but so the t here is a dual use facility where I am now in Virginia. That's down the road in Aldi. That's owned and operated by Piedmont Environmental Council, and they have a. It's a really cool. It's a small project. It's 17 kilowatts. It's behind the meter, covering the electricity operations for Roundabout Meadows, where the facility is. They have across the rows. There is a it's the front row is in front of all the panels, so it's full sun, so it's a control, and they have all the different crops lined up, and then they have raised beds, which I thought was really interesting. And the reason they put raised beds in is because they're then. It's more expensive to do a raised bed, but when you're doing a raised bed, you're not tapping into the soil that's right underneath. So there could be an opportunity for raised bed agriculture on contaminated lands because there's a divide there, which that's the first time I've ever thought about that.

Nico Johnson  15:17

Totally.

Lauren Glickman  15:17

And but given Encore's commitment to redevelopment and giving brownfields and landfills a second act or encore. I was like, that has a lot of excitement. It that got my eyes raised, just like the beds. And then, but then they have each successive row has the same plantings, and technically the first row has the most sun exposure and the least shade, but like each successive row, it's fixed. It's fixed tilt, so it's not tracking. And they are just entering their first full year of, but they are that it's they are viewing it as a test. They want to see which crops perform well? Sure. Which ones don't? Because they're especially in a place like Virginia. Our summers. I mean, I am not a farmer, but I am an amateur gardener, and I can tell you that my vincas, even though they're supposed to be really excited to be out in full sun and heat. The ones that are partially shaded, where they are on my porch, are doing a little bit better than the ones that are in full sun. And so, it's really interesting to see, you know, how as our weather is changing and some summers are getting hotter, and the sun is how some of these things could be a net positive. I

Nico Johnson  16:38

love that, and it doesn't sound like yet we have enough longitudinal evidence to make real conclusions, but I want to become more knowledgeable around where is the evidence the that we're seeing in real time. I know that this is something that is being tracked. I mean, heck, there's a whole summit dedicated to solar plus farmland, the solar farm summit.

Lauren Glickman  16:56

I think there might be a broader depth of data in Europe,

Nico Johnson  17:02

yeah, that's

Lauren Glickman  17:03

around this because they have been they deal with the fact of being a much more land constrained continent. So it's a reason offshore wind has taken off more in Europe because they don't have the space for land based wind the way that we do. But they've also embraced agri energy. AgPV just announced this week that the Vatican is installing an ag solar installation, which I was like, it's incredible. Yeah, you know, when you've got the Pope on your side, that's the place you want to be.

Nico Johnson  17:33

How do we want to think as an industry about modifying the communications, the message pillars around solar plus ag. What should those core message pillars become?

Lauren Glickman  17:45

So, I think one thing that is critically important, and it's a gap that I have identified, and it I haven't found a good solution to it yet. Is it is incredibly, it's incredibly Challenging to find the products, so if you want to purchase solar-grown X, how do you find that resource so that because that if there's a and there we're at an interesting moment because food costs are going up, along with everything else, but also food recalls are going up. So there's an interesting pivot to wanting to get things locally sourced, the locavore movement, and then the concept of regenerative agriculture is not new, but it's growing in popular discourse, and so I think there's a really interesting overlap between all those circles and food that can be sourced from a solar project. It's almost like a evolution and like an expansion of the local food movement or a farm to table movement. And at the moment, it's incredibly hard to find that, and if you can, if we can tap into that, it's really great when homeowners want to put solar on their roof, right? And you have a ton of cust balcony solar. Put solar in everyone's hands. Yeah.

Lauren Glickman  19:14

What if we could put solar grown food on everyone's table?

Nico Johnson  19:17

Yeah.

Lauren Glickman  19:18

So when someone's telling you that something's not real, well, it's like actually, the lamb you're eating, it came

Nico Johnson  19:25

from

Lauren Glickman  19:25

from from the flock that's grazing down the road,

Nico Johnson  19:30

which was made possible by the land preserved by a solar farm.

Lauren Glickman  19:33

Solar farm, yeah. I think so. I think that's I

Nico Johnson  19:36

think that's the connection that is really important for me. That's the distinction that I want to help folks understand is so as as I mentioned before, like part of the narrative has been we are helping to save this productive farmland from getting turned into something else, right? Namely, residential homes, which can never be undone. Rebecca and I talked about that a. Lot in the episode I did with her, so I don't know that I'm personally as I don't incentivize or motivated or bought into the notion that consumers are going to want to choose something that is somehow associated with solar as a product, like the lamb. And I share this this with Rebecca as well. There's the honey you can get from Silicon Ranches. I think they're they're they're example, or maybe not them, but somebody else in the Midwest. They like have all these apiaries on solar farms, and so it's solar honey.

Lauren Glickman  20:35

It's easy to find solar honey, and like solar source meat are the two things that are like

Nico Johnson  20:40

yeah

Lauren Glickman  20:40

you can find a little.

Nico Johnson  20:41

But your point is like there's there's not really necessarily a pull through. But if you there there are models for this. Nieman Ranch is a great example where nobody thought there was a real market for grass fed beef in the United States. And I remember living in California when folks started talking about this ranch called Nieman Ranch, who had basically said we're going to go exclusively grass-fed for our beef. We're going to charge more for it, and we're going to demonstrate why it's better for for taste, flavor, consumption, our environment, etc. Yeah, so I'm not throwing that out the window, but your point is well taken that we need to be able to communicate to folks that solar is a way to help increase productivity of our farmland. It can coexist with productive farmland. 41 out of 43 un or sort of fallow acres is currently being used for solar. What about the other 43 or one out of 44? What about the other 43? And how do we actually keep that from becoming huge blight on your neighborhood by turning it by by by becoming housing stock. How do we keep it food stock, or how do we keep the livestock in a place where they can graze locally rather than us importing it from Japan and calling it Kobe and saying this is how we should eat? I understand that. Are there any other, like, sort of message pillars? And I want to give a nod. I think that the work that you're doing, the work that Dan and the Solar Farm Summit guys are doing, the work Silicon Ranch and Lightsource BP are doing-it's all like there's such a huge lift that's been given in in the U.S. In addition to what we see in Europe, about how we are using regenerative practices, permaculture practices, and integrate and solar can integrate into that. Are there other messaging opportunities that we should be thinking about?

Lauren Glickman  22:32

Yeah. Well, so I mean, the food is the thing. I mean, and then are also if you can get into that, there's a whole food culture, right? That

Nico Johnson  22:39

yeah.

Lauren Glickman  22:40

So I, I, the food is, and again, I also didn't realize it. So it was another formative moment in me when Jess Gray told me that I could order her product online and have it shipped to me. Yeah. So I was like, sweet,

Nico Johnson  22:53

love

Lauren Glickman  22:53

it. But I do think there is a, and I think we're getting better at this. So I don't want to be too critical about it, but featuring the voices of the farmers. You know, having Rebecca Pierce talking about the her flock of sheep, having Lewis Fox, who's our grazer in Vermont and Maine, talking about his flock. That I think is like getting those farmers' voices out there because it, at the end of the day, I'm an energy developer, right? I'm creating electrons. I love the rural communities, and I believe it's a part of it's a value that I hold. But I'm not a farmer, so you know, while I can empathize with the challenges they're facing, I can't articulate them in the way that's as compelling as the farmer first sort of voice and approach, and I think we're getting better about that. I was on Capitol Hill in a room full of mostly Republicans, and it was it was actually Rebecca Pierce, it was Jess Gray and Chad Raines. You know, an event organized by the American Solar Grazer Association, and they. I think they were really well received. I think this is this is not a it's not a red issue. It's not a blue issue. It's an American issue, and so I think that that is something that is serving us well at this particular. I mean, I think it's something that would serve us well forever, but at this particular moment in time, it's helpful.

Nico Johnson  24:23

Yeah,

Lauren Glickman  24:24

and then one other thing I would add is how we talk about cows. I very rarely have this converse. We Encore does not have any cows on our site yet, but the growing amount of research around the integration of cattle, larger livestock, and solar is increasingly demonstrating that it is way more seamless and less complicated than anyone ever imagined. I think you may have spoken to Rebecca before, but she now has I think five or six cows that are out. She did not have

Nico Johnson  24:58

cattle at the time.

Lauren Glickman  24:59

Yeah, so. She has. She was able to put them out there. I'm not going to mention the name of the developer, but it's not Encore. It's in New York, and they are. The site was not developed for cows.

Nico Johnson  25:12

Yeah.

Lauren Glickman  25:13

So they're normal panels, fixed tilt, and there's no. She's having no issues.

Nico Johnson  25:18

Wow.

Lauren Glickman  25:19

And so there are pictures of them on her LinkedIn page. So there's publicly out there that she's doing this. I'm not disclosing, but you know, lamb is delicious, very lean protein, great. People should be eating it, but it is not the number one as

Nico Johnson  25:37

demand. Yeah,

Lauren Glickman  25:38

it's it's not an as demand. There's a nice history of it being an American food, but at the moment it is just not. It's not number one. And but beef, there's nothing. I mean, beef. It's what's for dinner. Was a very successful campaign, and it still holds true. And so the idea that we could integrate as seamlessly with cat, and there are also really interesting ways to plan for cattle in advance. That Silicon Ranch is doing a lot of that. They have their cattle voltaics tracker, so there are I think like innovations happening. To but it seems like it's a little bit more straightforward than that, and I think that is something that we need to be prepared to talk about and understand. And I mean, the I believe there is. I was at a briefing where someone was talking about that they literally put a bull out there to see. You know, are we going to have a bull in a china shop situation? Because we need to know, and not that anyone's talking about grazing bulls at solar projects, but it turns out it was not an issue. Got it. So I think there, there's a lot of possibility, and I think we need to not limit ourselves. Is really the we need we need to not tell farmers what they can't do

Nico Johnson  26:57

exactly because

Lauren Glickman  26:57

the second we tell them what they can't do, they're going to can't do that in front of us. The best you can't do that that we've ever seen, and it's I mean the innovation and ingenuity there is incredible.

Nico Johnson  27:07

Yeah, and I'll add to that two things that I've been thinking about since the interview I had with Rebecca. The first is that this is rural economic development, and it provides direct community benefit beyond just the like tax benefits to the community, because as Rebecca described and has been well documented, and Silicon Ranch knows this all too well, the the farmers like Rebecca they can only they only have a certain radius from home they can go, so it naturally stimulates sort of add-on economic value for farmers who grok that this is an opportunity, and can sort of capture the opportunity in their region. And as this becomes more commonplace, then those farms can also grow opportunity, add cattle, expand beyond maybe maybe buy a different farm in a different region to expand their their flock. The other thing that comes to mind for me is like the the gym the the operating practice that grazers give is is is weed management right on a solar site. It's to prevent the overgrowth of the ground cover, and what most people in the community don't realize is that very few. This is my experience. Prove me wrong. Anybody who's listening, I have a cousin who lives in South Carolina. This is his job. He literally takes his cruise from South Carolina to New York to Houston, all over the United States. The amount, the carbon footprint alone of his operation is incredible, but he's a weed science specialist. Like their job is to do weed management from airports to solar fields, from Duke to Nextera to AES. Like they have customers all over. While I appreciate that someone I know, independent of me, got all that opportunity and captured those contracts. Like every farm he goes to take care of in New York is an opportunity. Rebecca Pierce and her peers did not get a chance to do this kind of what I consider community positive local benefit for. And I think that's an under that is an underrepresented message of like this is how we keep it local. It is a real opportunity to for economics to meet us locally, and then the on the other side of that, just to put a pin in, like the message around reversibility is really critical. For it is as it is as American as the the like solar power equals independence, like the ability to be able to say to a farmer or a community, actually, when you invite a data center in, forget about reversibility. That building is going to be there, whether it's a data center or something else, for the next 100 years.

Lauren Glickman  29:54

I would say even forever.

Nico Johnson  29:55

Yes, and when these 43 acres that are not being used of the one acre that is getting solar. That are currently fallow, when they are identified by developers and converted into residential tracts, they will never, ever, ever, ever, ever be farmland again. Solar is a perfect partner. Clean energy generally, solar is a perfect partner for helping prevent the irreversibility of economic development in these communities around like fixed transfer of these properties into other useful assets.

Lauren Glickman  30:26

I appreciate that argument, and it's it is true. So there, the one area that I just exercise caution in is that you know these projects are being put in right now with what 2530 year power purchase agreements, and should in 30 years us we don't need the power anymore. The ability to take that solar project out and return is absolutely there, and there's nothing in the existing. But I will say, in a perfect world, in 30 years, technology will have advanced, and there will be an opportunity to repower. Yes, which what that looks like, I don't have a crystal ball. I do believe that modules are getting thinner, smaller, and more powerful. So it's possible that right now it's about 25 acres for a five megawatt facility. That maybe you get 10 acres back in 30 years because you only need.

Nico Johnson  31:20

Yeah, but but to your point, and if we're being pragmatic about it, I don't mean to be disingenuous.

Lauren Glickman  31:25

Yeah, the

Nico Johnson  31:25

energy sector is going to keep that land for as long as it can. Yeah, and so that's the thing. So I don't want to. Yeah, the more valuable property in that project is not actually the land it's sitting on, but the interconnection point. And once that interconnection point has been established as a generation node for the electric grid that we all rely on, it's probably going to stay in some form or other a power generation asset, and that land will be in some way, I believe, perpetually. I mean, I just had Laura Pagliaro energized. Yeah, energized. I just had Laura on from Solary, and that is their exact premise: is that this land will likely always be energized in some way. So if that's true, then I mean our industry purports that it's going to be more community beneficial to have that energization of the land be with solar because it also can have a dual use.

Lauren Glickman  32:15

I will say though the the point you made about the local like economics is absolutely on point, and I think it is one that we need to empower again the farmer to tell because I know like as Rebecca's herd or sorry her flock grows, she is using more grain in the winter when there isn't. So like her local feed store is getting an increased revenue. Her local vets are being used for vaccines. The local hay guys that are helping again when that she's not. So all of those induced economic benefits are staying locally. But I and that economic analysis is really important. And but it's also important to make sure we're getting that information accurately out there because the second you overpromise or falsely inflate something, you erode trust.

Nico Johnson  33:06

All right, that's part one with my friend Lauren Glickman, now becoming a veritable agrivoltaics expert. The thing I keep coming back to on this is that 43 acres to one number. Because if it holds true, then it changes what we're even arguing about. The threat to American farmland is not solar; it's apathy. It's children not wanting to farm anymore. It's all of us forgetting our roots, and it's farmland that nobody can afford to farm anymore. Land that just stops being farmland. There's no villain to really point at, and no headline. And frankly, as we pointed out, even a gravel pit up in Vermont that's now feeding a flock of sheep and feeding electrons into the grid, in my opinion, is a better answer than just leaving the land unused. We're going to drop a link in the comments to the SEA analysis. I hope that you will take a look at it. I'd encourage you to actually pay attention to the graphs and the numbers. Lauren said that it was life-changing for her, and she's not a person given to overstatement. If you want to reach Lauren, she's on LinkedIn. It's the best way to find her, and we'll of course link to that below. She'll also be doing a demo of exactly how she perceives the world might embody this new version of Agrivoltaics and Farm to Table. And you can find her at RA Plus coming up. All right, I want you to come back on Thursday. Part two is the harder half of the equation. Honestly, Lauren tells a story about pollinator meadows that Encore planted getting mowed down by the next project owner. Nothing illegal about it. Nothing that broke a permeate condition. Just a promise that didn't survive the transaction. She's got a lot to say about how we fixed that. If this one gave you something useful, I would love it if you would do us both a. And send it over to someone in your community who you think needs to hear it. Thanks to the folks who help support this community and this show, they pay the bills and help get the lights on. All we ask you to pay is attention. I'm so glad that you did this today. Remember, you are what you listen to. Thanks again for showing up, Solar Warrior. It's half the battle.

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