Tom Matzzie  00:00

The mature kind of energy technologies spend about 2% of their capex, more than $4 billion a year on public affairs activities. The money gap is real. It's a 20-eight to one money gap. Our kind of trade associations at the federal and state level spend 150 to 200 million, roughly a year. You know, the convenience stores who own gas stations have their own trade group, right? There's like just dozens of these things.

Nico Johnson  00:25

Yeah, for the last two decades that I've been in the industry, the clean energy sector has focused on building, on deploying, on moving faster, building projects and companies and supply chains, jobs, many jobs, over a quarter million jobs, and economic value, real tangible value that we have added to our industry, our economy. By almost every measure, we've succeeded. Solar has become one of the fastest-growing sources of electricity in the world. It will be the dominant source of electricity of generation on the planet. Clean energy investment has reached historic levels. Entire communities are being transformed by projects, businesses, and careers that you all have created across our industry. So here's a question: If we've built all of that, why do so many leaders still feel like we're playing defense? My guest today believes the answer has very little to do with technology, economics, or even policy. It has to do with power-not political power alone, but our industry's power-the innate power that we own or should be owning. Tom Matzi is the founder and CEO of Clean Choice Energy, one of the country's leading renewable energy providers. But before building Clean Choice, Tom spent more than 15 years in politics, advocacy, coalition building, and campaign strategy. Today, he sits at a unique intersection between entrepreneurship, energy markets, and public affairs. And in this conversation, we're going to explore what those worlds can learn from one another. We're going to talk about growing up around traditional energy communities in Western PA, the lessons Tom has learned building movements before he built companies, and why he created clean choice as a vehicle for his entrepreneurial efforts. Perhaps more importantly, what it actually takes for an industry to build the kind of lasting influence we all believe is possible. If you've ever wondered why some industries seem to shape the conversation and others simply react to it, I think you should continue listening to this episode. With that, invite you tune in and learn from one of the more thoughtful operators working at the intersection of clean energy and business and public affairs. Tom Matsy, welcome to SunCast.

Tom Matzzie  02:31

Thanks, Nico. Happy to be here.

Nico Johnson  02:33

Tom, you grew up in Western Pennsylvania, a place we all know is the birthplace of the oil and gas industry, traditional energy infrastructure. I'm curious how that shaped the way you think about energy today.

Tom Matzzie  02:45

Yeah, sure. No, that's right. Oil City, Pennsylvania, one of the first places we ever extracted oil and gas in the United States, and of course, you know, the coal mines of Western Pennsylvania are famous or infamous. Yeah, look, I grew up around energy infrastructures. The first thing is like kind of something you noticed. It wasn't something you ignored, but then I also got to see the like direct impact of traditional fossil energy, dirty energy on communities. And my father's hometown was once considered the kind of dirtiest town in Pennsylvania. That's like a direct quote from a newspaper story, you know, infamously had this particular type of pollution that, if you look up on Wikipedia, the term "black sugar, you'll read about the like particulate ash that fell all over his town from the coal-fired power plant that was next to town. I think it was actually across the river,

Nico Johnson  03:41

right?

Tom Matzzie  03:42

And this is in Beaver County, Pennsylvania. And you know they would have to sweep that soot off of their front steps every morning, and it was, but of course, also in their gardens. It was in, you know, the air they were breathing.

Nico Johnson  03:55

Yeah, permeates the everything.

Tom Matzzie  03:58

Yeah, and you know, and my father, he passed 2009 or 2010 2010 from a former cancer. You know, somewhat tied, likely tied to the pollution and in his community that he grew up in. But it also it was complicated because, of course, you know that literally. I also learned the term "smoke in the air" means bread on the table when I when I was growing up, you know, it's how people take took care of their families was you know living and working in in those communities. So you know, what you learn is that at least for me, you know, the choices of energy we make have human consequences in addition to the economic consequences, and that if for me at least, if there's a better choice, take it. And of course, you should take it if there's a better choice.

Nico Johnson  04:48

Yeah,

Tom Matzzie  04:48

that's I think the most important lesson I took from growing up in Western Pennsylvania.

Nico Johnson  04:52

You know, a lot of listeners, to the extent that they are familiar with you and your story, know you as a clean energy entrepreneur, but entrepreneur. Was actually your second career. What drew you first into organizing and politics?

Tom Matzzie  05:05

You know, I moved to Washington D.C. in 1997 after graduating from Notre Dame, and I had just saved a couple $1,000 and had one suitcase and like you know couch surfed to find my way, but it was just like the intersection of economics and politics and policy was always something that was interesting to me, and you know, obviously, energy is another manifestation of that. But you know, I worked in politics and advocacy for 15 years at the highest levels of it. In fact, you know, national campaigns, national organizations impacting the things that you would read in the headlines, you know, or see on the evening news every night, including you know working on energy issues and climate issues. But you know, more broadly than that, I worked. I led all the U.S. campaigns against the war in Iraq, you know, for several years. I you know, worked on you know a variety of other issues.

Nico Johnson  06:04

When you say against the war in Iraq, could you be more specific?

Tom Matzzie  06:07

Yeah, I was a Washington director and national campaigns director for MoveOn.org Political Action, which

Nico Johnson  06:11

oh really

Tom Matzzie  06:12

at the time was the largest political organization in the United States.

Nico Johnson  06:16

Yeah,

Tom Matzzie  06:16

and I remember kind of yeah, kind of invented the modern super PAC as we know it today in a lot of ways, and so that included the responsibility for some period of time running our campaigns to change U.S. policy as regards Iraq during the second Bush administration. If you asked me today, you know I would go pick up George W. Bush at the airport compared to our current politics. Escort, escort him

Nico Johnson  06:45

back into the office. Sure, yeah. What fascinated you at that time, Tom, about campaigns, the architecture, and even the power of them?

Tom Matzzie  06:53

Yeah. So, human motivation. I mean, how and the ability for communities and humans to like influence their society is what politics becomes about. Like, do you want to? How how do you want your society somewhat organized? Is it organized around you know about the common good, or is it only organized around individual liberty? I mean, these are and for me that we want both, you know, and you you want to try to find a balance, you know, between these things. And politics is the way that these sorts of debates often play out. You know, the U.S. economy and the global economy now are often much bigger than what politics can influence, and so markets are, in my view, as or more important today than than government policy and the ability for markets to deploy things very quickly is much more powerful. Yeah, but government has a role in shaping how those markets play out.

Nico Johnson  07:50

With MoveOn and and other activity you were involved in, you had the opportunity to persuade and help move sentiment. What did those years teach you about people and the way we're persuaded and motivated and leadership in general?

Tom Matzzie  08:07

Well, the number one thing I would say is that learning how politicians are motivated by their own self-interest. You know, and every politician may have some issue they care a lot about. Maybe they're an expert on mortgages or insurance or something like that, and they get to work on that issue once every 10 years. But like most of the time, they our issue won't be their issue, and so you have to appeal to them on their kind of political self interest, which is they just want to get reelected into the in their next race or or rise in high to a higher office, and I think often advocates make this mistake of assuming the, and at the federal level at least that the kind of strength of our arguments is the most important, you know, persuasion tool we have. You know, the fact that we have a winning technology, that we have a cheaper option, that it also is cleaner,

Nico Johnson  09:01

yeah,

Tom Matzzie  09:02

is sufficient, and in many places for market demand, it can be. The reality in politics is that politicians are persuaded by what's in their political self-interest, whether or not that's fundraising or avoiding an opponent or something like that. They just want to get reelected.

Nico Johnson  09:18

When you think about successful campaigns that you maybe observed. How how do you how would you articulate to the listeners what the underlying sort of techniques were involved that that made it successful? And and I don't have anything particular in mind, Tom. I'm just thinking about how like you were not only involved it, but you but you surely have observed things have been have been really successful.

Tom Matzzie  09:42

You know you're often playing with the tool, the narrative that's already in the media, right? And so today, for example, we've been given this great opportunity in the solar industry of the opportunity to talk about affordability by the inflation. That people are experiencing in their lives and energy, well, we should be using that to drive home the message about the opportunity for new solar to be cheaper than the alternatives, and you know that's a important part of our message. But it seems to be that we haven't we haven't quite landed it. It's not on the tip of everyone's tongue that solar is the cheapest. I mean, I mean everybody. I mean the mass market. You know, the public at large. That's an example of a missed opportunity that we need to, as an industry, figure out how to not miss in the future.

Nico Johnson  10:33

Completely agree. I was just in Nashville visiting the folks at Silicon Ranch, and we were talking about the solar saves farms. I'm going to call it. It's it's not even a campaign at this moment. It's more of a meme, but it could be because it's true that solar saves farms. That solar gives farms new life, literally as a revenue stream. And instead, many rural folks, my family in rural South Carolina included still have this thing lodged in their brain that solar is a scam, right? Rather than that, solar has helped their neighbors out of tight financial spots. We'll come back around to that because really the the core message for this interview that you and I've talked about over the last year plus is around how to build that power. I want to help folks who maybe aren't familiar with you better understand, though, your move from politics into energy directly, sort of back to your roots. What problem did you create Clean Choice to solve, and why did you migrate to building an energy company rather than sticking with the politics and the work that you were doing there,

Tom Matzzie  11:41

yeah. So you know, my dirty little secret of my time in politics is actually that I don't like politics that much. So I guess I would say is I was a very good operative, and it manifested in sometimes me being a somewhat disagreeable person who was not very always well liked by my political opponents, and at the same time, like many entrepreneurs, I have an itch to build something. And I back in 2009 1011, I wasn't sure what that thing is that I was going to build.

Nico Johnson  12:13

Yeah,

Tom Matzzie  12:13

but I went through this experience of putting rooftop solar on my home then in Washington D.C. and I would say the company who did this for my family at the time, Astrom, now then Astrom Solar, now I think no longer operating, they did a great job, basically a perfect job of execution. But it was a difficult process. Still, this is early in the days of solar, right? 2009 and 10, and you know they had to wait eight or nine months for the right meter from the utility, and someone had to wait outside my house for an inspector to come for like two days, and you know just all those sorts of complications.

Nico Johnson  12:52

Yeah,

Tom Matzzie  12:53

the younger part of the industry, and I said to myself, there has to be an easier way to do this, you know, that makes a service and not a home construction project, right? There's different ways, as we know, people experience solar today, whether it's rooftop solar or they're buying through their utility or they have community solar. And this is before you know those sorts of products existed that were service products, and so that was the insight. How do I make solar easier? How to make renewable energy easier for the customer by lowering the barrier to participation to be as low as possible by selling it as a service and not a home improvement project. And I I knew that I knew how to do the kind of marketing side of it, the aggregation of customers, which we know is often the hardest part of the industry. And I knew I could hire people who had the energy expertise, and I just somewhat crazily, not knowing how hard it could be, decided to build an energy company that is now Clean Choice Energy.

Nico Johnson  13:52

Yeah,

Tom Matzzie  13:53

I also knew my expertise wasn't in project development or construction; it was on the kind of services side.

Nico Johnson  14:00

Yeah,

Tom Matzzie  14:00

and so I started and ran the business without our own assets for many years, and then eventually we, as you know, hired you know now my my partner in this work, Zoe Gamble, who's the president of Clean Choice, who has you know more than a 15 years of experience building large utility scale projects to then do the vertical integration in our business, and now you know we are vertically integrated renewable energy provider.

Nico Johnson  14:27

Tom, I'm going to bring it full circle for you. Josh Goldberg is a friend. He was one of the founders of Astrum, who installed your system. Which that company I had him on maybe a year and a half, two years ago, sold to Direct Energy, which then sold to NRG, now one of the largest direct retail providers to consumers. So it's it's interesting to me, and I can't tell you how many stories of founders who've come on, and the spark of why they got into solar was because they put solar in their house, and it just wasn't the experience, the service that they thought that the. Deserved, so I'm fascinated by that. But also, full circle, the company that ultimately that installed your product, your your your project or your home ended up being in in an interesting way. You created a company that competes with them now as Clean Choice owns assets and provides retail service that competes with NRG and others. I love that.

Tom Matzzie  15:20

That's that's true. Yes, I think that's fascinating.

Tom Matzzie  15:23

And there's actually an important lesson here for I think the larger solar industry, which is the competitive energy markets are very large, and they didn't exist 25 years ago.

Nico Johnson  15:32

Right.

Tom Matzzie  15:33

Right. So the constellations, Vistro's, NRG, they sell today upwards of 30 to 40 percent of all electricity sales in the United States, and literally, that's an industry that didn't exist three three decades ago.

Nico Johnson  15:45

Right.

Tom Matzzie  15:45

So industries can grow very fast if the markets are well designed.

Nico Johnson  15:50

When you look back on the initial seed of the idea and getting clean choices off the ground, what needed to be true a decade, 15 years ago, for this business to work, why not five years earlier? Right? Why was that moment different?

Tom Matzzie  16:07

I'm not sure the moment was that different. It was just the moment I chose to do it. There were certainly some opportunity, you know, things that needed to be established in terms of you know technology that had been developed to support companies like mine, where previously you would have to build something from scratch, technology-wise, market access through regulatory, you know, or regulation or legislation was another piece. But there's lots of different things that come together to make a market work: financing, supply chain, regulation, policy. and all you know quite complex, but you know the moment which I formed the company in November of 2011 didn't start taking revenue until March of 2013. But the it was just the moment right for me as an entrepreneur, and I think that's actually something really important for prospective entrepreneurs to hold on to and remember. There's no time like the present. Just seize the day and go for it.

Nico Johnson  17:08

I love

Tom Matzzie  17:08

it. You won't regret going early.

Nico Johnson  17:12

You mentioned before I asked the question. Actually, it occurs to me that you know, 30 years ago, geez, 20 years ago, the market didn't exist for third-party retail providers like Clean Choice to do what they do. So part of the underlying what needed to be true is that there needed to be state laws that allow independent third-party suppliers to do what Clean Choice does, what NRG and Vista do. I think probably if I think back on the market as well with you, the consumers weren't willing prior to pay like what we might consider a green premium on their bill or otherwise. The rec markets needed to mature. There were a few things sort of structurally, and tech. You pointed to the technology I was at at the time you started Clean Choice. I was still at Trina selling solar panels at 50-five or 60 cents a watt, and they had just dropped from like 90-five cents a watt prior to that. I bought my first solar panels and sold to my customers at 320 a watt. So all all of that contributes certainly from a market structure perspective. When did it become clear to you that you were building a real company? It was not just pursuing this interesting idea, but it was actually working. Was it you know customers? Was there a market signal?

Tom Matzzie  18:26

Yeah, we very early had a lot of reception from from customers. There was a hunger for customer from customers for a solution that was easier than a home construction project, or if they were renters and you know couldn't put solar on their home, and you know when I'm always asked about the difference between a competitive energy services product and like rooftop solar, I'm like, if you can do rooftop solar, do

Nico Johnson  18:49

it. Yeah,

Tom Matzzie  18:50

it's a great product, but our product is for the customer who doesn't have the time, or they don't have the the financial means, or their house is not appropriate, or you know some something else like that, I mean, and also it's only a short-term commitment. You know, they can cancel whenever they want, leave the contract whenever they want. As part of the feature of the product, is that it's easy to exit the contract, just as easy it is to get into the contract. But it was, you know, within 18 months, our business was EBITA positive. That's one of the advantages of the business model of getting you know paid every month by your customer,

Nico Johnson  19:24

right?

Tom Matzzie  19:25

So I think when we reached that kind of 18 month, 24 month you know time horizon, I knew it was going to last. I would say we have seen every possible energy market event over the life of the company, polar vortex with you know out of control commodity prices, war in Ukraine with out of control commodity prices, you know pandemic with a drastic drop in you know prices as demand destruction took off, and so when I. Started to see the company being able to weather crazy things that were happening in the world. I was like, "Oh, okay, this is this is sustainable as a business.

Nico Johnson  20:08

I've heard you refer to entrepreneurs as a force of nature, but also acknowledging that nothing gets done alone. Can you unpack that for me?

Tom Matzzie  20:15

Yeah, I mean, absolutely. The most important thing is that that I love as Bob is being part of this entrepreneurial, like you know, I don't know what the term would be-community, I guess, or cohort, or or just like America. You know, one of our superpowers is that we is entrepreneurs, and the fact that entrepreneurs can build things and drive things really quickly and make things happen. And I, I am at my happiest when I'm with another group of like entrepreneurs in solar in the clean energy space, and I just look at them as like all amazing people who are building amazing things.

Nico Johnson  20:52

Yeah,

Tom Matzzie  20:53

and and at the same time, the great skill of an entrepreneur is to motivate, is to provide a vision and mobilate, motivate and mobilize other people to join you in making that vision happen.

Nico Johnson  21:04

Yeah, and

Tom Matzzie  21:04

so putting a team together is the single and first most responsible, you know, most important responsibility of an entrepreneur. The team is how an entrepreneur succeeds, and that's the lesson I have learned over and over again as a CEO of Clean Choice,

Nico Johnson  21:22

yeah.

Tom Matzzie  21:22

And if if I had one thing to tell to myself in 2011 or 12, it would be, you know, really keep working on that team as the is your primary first job, and you know, as I'm not sure, you're you you want to solve every problem in the company and get you know, you're like I see this thing happening. I know I can fix it, but for the organization to be able to scale the team is what's really needed, and building that team.

Nico Johnson  21:49

Yeah, I've appreciated your mentorship, and so I want to I want to take you in a specific direction here. I one of the questions that I've asked you prior, just thinking about my own business and raising capital and thinking about growing as an entrepreneur, you know who's the first key hire when you do have the capacity, and and your answer was the head of people, and I'd love for you to impact that a little more because that's an that's a non obvious answer for someone who's trying to think well who's going to do marketing and who's going to do sales and

Tom Matzzie  22:17

right and that's this is a lesson I learned because I did not hire ahead of people for 10 years, and that was a mistake. Since my number one job as an entrepreneur is to put the team together, I also am the my number one job is to sell the business to capital providers and you know provide this vision and product guidance, all those sorts of things. But having someone whose entire job and skill set is looking at the team and how to build the team and hiring the right people and hiring the best people we can we can find full time and not thinking about the problems that we might have with financing or not dealing with the problems of marketing or sales or operations or whatever it is, that's like really critical. Yeah, and like you can, as you can accelerate the business. You know, I always talk about some people you bring into your business are gas, and other people are brakes. And like you know, my head of people and others, you know, and my experience talking to other entrepreneurs, their similar experience that their their head of people is that they are gas. They accelerate the business. That's what you're looking for.

Nico Johnson  23:26

Can the head of people also be another term that I feel like I feel like the role of chief of staff sometimes becomes head of people?

Tom Matzzie  23:33

Sure.

Nico Johnson  23:34

Is that is it synonymous in a startup culture? No,

Tom Matzzie  23:37

I don't think it's completely synonymous because I think the chief of staff also can get you know pulled into other operational kind of details, where what you really want is ahead of people who's only thinking about who to hire next. How are people working together with each other or not working well together with each other, and how does that get kind of fixed?

Nico Johnson  23:57

Is that person a professional HR person? Are they coming from? Are you are you thinking like if you start a new company, that would you be trying to poach someone from you know another sector? How would you think about finding? How would I think about finding ahead of people?

Tom Matzzie  24:09

Yeah. So the difference is like if they're they're HR fundamentally they're from human resources in some way or another, but they have a strategic HR orientation rather than what I would call a like ministerial HR orientation, and the ministerial HR orientation is the person who's like, "What are our benefits? How do I get the paychecks done on time?

Nico Johnson  24:32

Right.

Tom Matzzie  24:33

And and by the way, there's services that do all that stuff for you today, so there's no reason you like a PEO, no reason you have to ever think about that.

Nico Johnson  24:39

Right.

Tom Matzzie  24:40

And so that strategic HR person who's looking at like the the the psychology of your workforce and your team and your leadership is a different skill that, and that's what you interview for, and you're really you're looking for that when you talk to somebody like. Tell me about a problem you solved with a team.

Nico Johnson  25:02

Yeah,

Tom Matzzie  25:03

how do you know when it's time to replace somebody? How do you know when it's time to create a new position? And if they're thinking like a CEO and their and their answers, that's probably the right person.

Nico Johnson  25:14

Amazing.

Tom Matzzie  25:14

But people who do this strategic HR know it and they can sell it to you during the interview.

Nico Johnson  25:19

What do you think separates companies that can scale from those that stall.

Tom Matzzie  25:22

Yeah, I mean the ability for the CEO not to hold on to the reins too tight, I think, is a big difference between companies that scale and companies that don't. And so having a team that can deliver and execute on the on the work, rather, and so your business is not a workshop like like where a woodworker might work, and everything's within sight. And you see, you know, the the head woodworker touches everything that gets built.

Nico Johnson  25:47

Yeah,

Tom Matzzie  25:47

versus like a you know a machine that like you you you turn the crank and something comes out the other end, and you're trying to build that machine for scale.

Nico Johnson  25:57

Yeah,

Tom Matzzie  25:57

that's the difference.

Nico Johnson  25:59

Tom, you built the company of clean choice with modest outside capital compared to a lot of venture-backed businesses and even a lot of your peers. Can you talk to me about the the discipline? Where did that discipline come from around both raising and executing on the capital raised?

Tom Matzzie  26:14

Yeah, right. So we raised you know 18 million in equity into the business over 10 years, and we had different you know types of debt or credit financings for that were asset backed financings. Yeah, I mean certainly my experience in campaigns and politics, you don't spend money until you've funded every day between now and election day, right? And so you know there's kind of you you learn how to you know live with what you have, and just figure it out. And so, like, if today, if if it's you know July, it's July one or whatever date it is. There's so many days between now and you know election day. You know, whether you know something like 120 or whatever it is. The and you have to yeah, how much budget do you need for each of those days, and then you don't start spending money until you've funded each of those days until you're today is kind of a discipline I took from my time in politics.

Nico Johnson  27:09

Okay, and so therefore, as you're raising capital, you're looking at a milestone that essentially says like this is where we got to get to with the money we're raising, and we can't start

Tom Matzzie  27:18

cash flow. Yes,

Nico Johnson  27:19

yeah, yeah.

Tom Matzzie  27:20

Aiming for cash flow, you know, free cash flow.

Nico Johnson  27:23

Yeah,

Tom Matzzie  27:23

that then can fund next month. Yeah,

Nico Johnson  27:26

I'll tell you, man, the most important lesson I've learned in 10 years. Everyone understands cash is king, and cash flow is the is the lifeblood of a business. We could go way down a rabbit hole there. Let's get back to this concept of power. You've spent meaningful time in both politics and business. When you compare these two worlds, what does the clean energy industry possess today that it might not really appreciate yet?

Tom Matzzie  27:47

The most important thing you know we should appreciate is that we have the solution for what America needs. Solar has the solution for what America needs. Period, and we have affordable energy that's very easy to rapidly deploy. It works everywhere in different amounts, whether or not you know, depending on your latitude, but in your insulation, right? So, like, but it works everywhere,

Nico Johnson  28:12

yeah.

Tom Matzzie  28:12

And that's it snaps together like Legos, right? It's not like it's, you know, yeah, it's not like a gas-fired power plant where you have to have gas supply, water. You have to build this one complicated system, and you have to the welds on the pipes have to be perfect. You might have to X-ray the welds, and if there's something wrong with X-ray, you have to yank the whole thing out. Like it's complicated. That's not how our industry works, right? Yeah. There's certainly mistakes that get made when you build a solar farm, but it's literally like you unsnap a bunch of stuff and unscrew a bunch of stuff and put it in the back of the truck and then put to bring the new stuff in and screw it back together and snap it back together.

Nico Johnson  28:50

Yeah,

Tom Matzzie  28:50

that's way easier than trying to build something that has to withstand like high pressure from steam or gas or something you know something like that or high spinning speeds.

Nico Johnson  29:01

Yeah,

Tom Matzzie  29:01

so we have the solution that America needs is the thing that I think most people need to hold on to, which is easy and fast to deploy affordable energy, and with energy storage, it's like extensible to you know every hour of the day.

Nico Johnson  29:17

Yeah,

Tom Matzzie  29:17

that's the most important thing we have to hold on to, and we have to communicate it. It's not obvious to the public that solar is the most affordable option that's available today. I mean, this is one of the most important things: is how are you perceived by the political leaders who might be making decisions about the future of your industry, whether or not they're making a decision about a tax issue or tariffs, or some other regulation. Are you perceived as someone they want to be friends with, or you know, or are they are you are they afraid of you, or do they need you? And you're either at the dinner table, or you're you're being served as the dinner.

Nico Johnson  29:58

Yeah,

Tom Matzzie  29:59

right. I mean. Whatever that metaphor is, and we don't want to be not in control of our own destiny. We've we've we've seen over the last few years tremendous success as an industry. It's like, but it's a tale of two cities because we also have seen you know hundreds or 1000s of bankruptcies in the industry, especially on the distributed side, and you know that impacts capital, right? That impacts the workforce. That impacts the supply chain in a way that hurts everybody, including the most successful businesses. Are we perceived by Wall Street investors today as like a growing place to invest in, or we, you know, I think the AI boom means that yes, we are, and the success of our publicly traded companies, you know, suggests that's the case. But are we also, if that AI boom kind of passes, are we perceived as like the solution because we have the also the affordable choice? So, but the telling the story of power is like really important. You want there to be a story that a member of Congress can tell to another member of Congress, where they're like, "Man, I got hammered in my last election by these guys, and I don't want to make them angry next time.

Nico Johnson  31:15

Yeah.

Tom Matzzie  31:15

So, like, let's not pick this fight. Let's let's let's not do this. The crypto industry did this very successfully over the last few years.

Nico Johnson  31:24

Okay, say more.

Tom Matzzie  31:25

And that's and I think this is actually a great model for for the solar industry, where they invested 10s of millions of dollars into both supporting their friends and opposing their opponents in their next election. Yeah, because going back, you know, politicians respond to their own political self-interest. They respond in the language of like, "What will get me elected in my next election? And if they think that there could be a million or $2 million dropped on them in their next election, they might behave differently and decide this isn't the issue I care that much about

Nico Johnson  32:01

right.

Tom Matzzie  32:01

I'll like not hurt these guys, or I will help them.

Nico Johnson  32:05

Yeah,

Tom Matzzie  32:05

you know whatever the whatever it is, and you. So that's the kind of political you know argument you want politicians to understand, but you also need to feed them the intellectual argument, the policy argument, which is that we're the cheapest option, we're fast to deploy, and you need both sides of that. I call you know. It's someone once called it the difference between your heart space and your head space.

Nico Johnson  32:27

Yeah,

Tom Matzzie  32:28

you know, and you'd have to have something that speaks to both. And this is we're not note that I haven't talked about climate or clean energy, right? I'm talking about the things that are just very practical, affordable energy, fast to deploy. Yeah, and yeah, we we we are the solution. So let's not give people an excuse to victimize us.

Nico Johnson  32:49

Use a phrase that I find fascinating. It's mythic power. I want to understand what is mythic power and how will we know when the clean energy industry has achieved it.

Tom Matzzie  33:00

Yeah, so I use this term "mythic power" to mean what's the story of your political power? Are you perceived as weak or strong? Are you a lion or are you a gazelle as an industry? Are you predator or prey as an industry? And these are very kind of crude terms, but it's it's how people perceive things to be very blunt, and we shouldn't pretend that that's otherwise. The the truth is that if we achieve mythic power, mythic meaning there's a story about us that people tell other people. It won't matter who's in office anymore. Yeah. Someone, you know, I was at a conference and someone's like, "What would mean if we had power? And one person was like, "We'll be able to defeat anybody, oppose you know these candidates or you know whatever it is, and I just said, look, if you truly had mythic power, it will not matter who's in office. They will all want to be your friend, and like that's what you're working towards.

Nico Johnson  33:50

Yeah, is

Tom Matzzie  33:50

not actually being in ideological combat with anybody, but being in a permanent state of you know peaceful relationship with everybody in in politics and in policy making because we have the solution everyone needs, but also because they can't victimize us or they know that their political future is at risk, and that's the difference. But what I'm trying to bring is this kind of accountability work, which is not something industry has done. We've often supported our friends, raised money for our friends, although I'd say at volumes that are not sufficient.

Nico Johnson  34:27

Yeah, the

Tom Matzzie  34:28

work I'm bringing that's different here is accountability for the people that decided they want to hurt our industry. And we started, of course, with Chip Roy in Texas, who was running for state attorney general in a primary, and Roy announced at the end of the IRA repeal, the O Triple B, that he was working to get 90% of all projects canceled. He put this down in writing in a press release that he was trying to get 90% of all projects canceled, and that's as you and I know that is. Capital that comes from pension funds and insurance companies, and 401k that is people's jobs, that is people's businesses. This is not a place for like some sort of ideological trophy hunt and playing some game that you're trying to kill 90% of all projects. And so you know that is an example of a politician that our industry would need to hold accountable for his actions,

Nico Johnson  35:24

yeah,

Tom Matzzie  35:24

and that was our first investment for the Super PAC that I've been organizing.

Nico Johnson  35:28

Tom, that's exactly where I thought you would go. You've been involved in efforts designed to increase the industry's political effectiveness. I want to understand what is the effort. What are the what problem are those efforts trying to solve, and how do we rally the industry to bridge these resources into something that is finally a meaningful contribution to our to the power position that we need?

Tom Matzzie  35:52

Yeah. So the Invest in Tomorrow Coalition pack, yeah, was originally started by two entrepreneurs, Peter Davidson and Brendan Bell of the Line Climate Capital. They had reached out to me in the fall, and you know, said, "Hey, we need to do something. I said, "Here's an idea, but I'm really busy, Peter. I can't work on it. And and Peter picked it up and went and did it. He made it happen. He got a pack created. He passed the hat. You know, I I donated. Others donated to help raise the funds necessary to challenge Chip Roy, and then we had our successful, you know, investment in Texas, where we really went into the Republican primary with a message that Chip Roy was not Trumpy enough. He was not MAGA enough for Texas, and of course that was true because you know President Trump himself had called for Roy to be challenged in his primary, and Roy had many ways opposed to Trump or made it harder for Trump to deliver on his agenda. I guess would be what I'd say. Ultimately, voted with Trump on everything, and we chose those messages because that would be what worked in Republican primary. It wasn't us talking about energy or solar or the benefits. We were looking at what will make the biggest impact in the primary, and so this super PAC has now played in three different races and will play in dozens more, hopefully this year, to send a message to our enemies. You know, and I use that term deliberately. These are people who have tried to kill our industry. I'm not talking about people we have disagreements with. Disagreements are a totally normal civil thing to have. I'm talking about people who worked to to hurt our companies by asking for the Trump administration to launch an administrative assault on permits and zoning, other regulatory issues. Those are the people that we want to see stopped in their rise to future office, or or defeated in their next election, and we're aiming to you know raise you know 10s of millions. I mean, we've already announced that we have 15 million in pledges out there. A big investor in the space, Chris Larson, who was also part of the crypto industry and helped create the crypto industry's political effort, has you know, put up, you know, a some of the capital and some and pledging to work with industry on whatever they might put up. We're in the middle of you know continuing to fundraise and looking for our next races for the rest of the year.

Nico Johnson  38:17

What have you learned so far? What surprised you? What encouraged you about how the capital was deployed, where it can be deployed, and you know, and and how much more we need to raise?

Tom Matzzie  38:28

Yeah, sure. So I mean, it's an interesting thing because we're we're one we're investing in Republican primaries so far. One of the things that's changed in the last 15 to 20 years has been the massive balkanization of online media, where people go to their own corners ideologically, and they're consuming content from platforms that are ideologically aligned with their own views. Typically,

Nico Johnson  38:51

yeah.

Tom Matzzie  38:51

Even inside the giant platforms, the x.com and Facebook, you know, Instagram, people are experiencing that balkanization through algorithm. But the interesting. interesting thing about the balkanization is it has now made it easier to talk to Republican primary voters,

Nico Johnson  39:09

right?

Tom Matzzie  39:09

Because there's a substantial portion of them who are consuming all the same media, and so like if I was advertising on you know the CBS affiliate in Texas, I would be talking to you know 70 to 80% of the people I'd be talking to would not be voting in the Republican primary, and we had no plan to vote in the Republican primary. But hyperpartisan or hyper you know ideological you know people are who are consuming media from those platforms are very likely to vote in the Republican primary, and so it's just very efficient. And by my estimate, it's probably six times more efficient than you know working in a general election kind of circumstance. So if you had a million dollars, it actually ends up looking like $6 million of spent of spending.

Nico Johnson  39:58

Wow,

Tom Matzzie  39:59

and that's like. That's an interesting kind of inversion of the what I think is an unfortunate problem of balkanization of media. Much rather we had a national kind of front page and discourse going on as a country,

Nico Johnson  40:11

yeah,

Tom Matzzie  40:11

and we weren't all in our own corners. You know, there's place for opinion, but we should be working from the same facts. But it's inversion of that that is not just a problem, but also an opportunity to talk to a group of people who we're trying to persuade or mobilize.

Nico Johnson  40:28

Tom, there's a lot of discussion, not just necessarily around midterms, which is a our near term focus, but around longer term market development tools, industry building efforts. I'm curious what gaps we need to fill what product or service or kind of what mechanisms still need to be built, and and specifically like the capabilities our industry needs to invest in that'll matter 10 years from now.

Tom Matzzie  40:51

I mean, look, this has been one of my projects over the last 18 to 20-four months has been to answer that question of what would a more mature industry public affairs apparatus look like

Nico Johnson  41:01

yeah.

Tom Matzzie  41:02

There's some big missing pieces. I mean, the the number one thing

Nico Johnson  41:06

is money. The

Tom Matzzie  41:06

mature kind of energy technologies spend about 2% of their capex, more than $4 billion a year on public affairs activities across the industry, and that's that's probably a shocking number to a lot of people. But it's it's the truth. It's the reality, and we all see it when we see the advertising. Depending on what state you're in, you know, by you know fossil fuel companies, oil and gas, and you know, to in their defense, they're under attack. So, like, they're going to of course spend, but like the the money gap is real. It's a 20-eight to one money gap. Our our kind of trade associations at the federal and state level spend 150 to 200 million, roughly a year. It would probably be a little higher because they've been doing a good job of increasing their numbers. But and the on the on the incumbent technology side, it's more than 4 billion, and it's across, by the way, dozens of different trade groups in the on the fossil side, you know the the convenience stores who own gas stations have their own trade group, right? There's like just dozens of these things. The first is the money. The other two kind of really big ones that are are missing. One is a big communications apparatus, and this is what we see a lot in agriculture through the marketing programs like Got Milk or Beef It's What's For Dinner, you know, you know, pork the other white meat caught in the fabric of our lives. Where's our like Solar Saves You Money or whatever it is kind of national constant advertising program that's just out there to shape the environment on this?

Nico Johnson  42:35

Yeah,

Tom Matzzie  42:36

and that's one piece, and it you know includes funding in you know content creators and media.

Nico Johnson  42:42

Yeah,

Tom Matzzie  42:42

you know, just across the whole spectrum. Here, here. Yeah, yes, including SunCast, right? Yeah,

Nico Johnson  42:48

totally. The

Tom Matzzie  42:48

the other kind of missing pieces. Yeah, we're actually not that great at, despite having hundreds of 1000s of employees at showing up at state and local kind of venues, and this contrasts with like the realtors who every member Congress knows who works for the Realtors Association in their district, or the community bankers, the insurance industry, or you know the teachers' unions, or whatever it is. There's someone local in every elected official's district from those other segments, and we don't have that. We might have some one person at statewide level or two people at a statewide level, but we're and we have companies in those districts, but we might we're not organized politically in those geographies. So those are just a couple of the gaps: communications and the kind of grassroots field capacity. And I think we should be looking at how other industries have funded this this work through like the the same mechanisms that fund got milk, the the agricultural checkoff programs, for example.

Nico Johnson  43:50

This solar industry, clean energy, generally, it is something that we've spent now billions of dollars re domesticating, so to speak, and it is about American progress from a core IP perspective, from a manufacturing perspective, from a jobs perspective, how do we tie it to American progress? Right. That that for me, we we're not going to solve it on this episode. I I encourage everyone listening. We really need to. We do really need to solve this. It's we have you know, we have a couple of things that we need to focus on here. Raising capital, Invest Tomorrow Coalition is a great way to do that, and then the, you know, coming coming up with a way to to channel this energy into a message that resonates with everyone and that people can remember that it becomes a part of the psychology, the way Got Milk did of the way we think about a category, Tom. When you look out, you know, five or so years, 2030 Let's just pick 2030 It's four years away. What gives you confidence that we are finally heading? So in I am going to say in the right direction. Maybe we're not. What gives you confidence?

Tom Matzzie  44:59

Look. What what the solar industry does every year, every day now is like amazing. If you asked, if you said to me 15 years ago the solar industry would be deploying 50 to 60 plus gigawatts a year, and you tell me where the numbers are, I think it's somewhere in that range. I would told you you're crazy. I mean, this is literally 10 times larger than what we were doing, you know, 10 years ago. So I'm excited to see what comes next.

Speaker 1  45:25

Yeah.

Tom Matzzie  45:25

The thing that is exciting about that is we now have a whole generation of entrepreneurs who are really good at doing this work.

Nico Johnson  45:33

Yeah.

Tom Matzzie  45:34

And they are out. They're going to start new businesses and they're going to like figure out the next problem. And it's why, and it's you know the solar industry and the entrepreneurs from solar are why now energy storage is booming as well. Is because the there those entrepreneurs are just like oh yeah we know how to deploy new equipment and figure out how to make it financeable through a revenue stream and you know it's a similar problem to what Solar had to deal with 15 years ago. That's what makes me really optimistic. Is we have a whole generation of entrepreneurs who know how to do this work and are really good at it and are very ambitious and committed to it as well.

Nico Johnson  46:15

Is there anything that you think leaders in the industry should be paying more attention to or closer attention to right now?

Tom Matzzie  46:20

Well, I mean, clearly, I believe that politics is an underinvested in area.

Nico Johnson  46:25

Yeah,

Tom Matzzie  46:25

political risk is a form of investment risk, and as a CEO or as an executive or as an entrepreneur, you deal with risk all the time, whether it's a cost risk for equipment or inflation risk or cost of capital risk or labor risk, whatever it is, you know, contracts are basically a way to manage risk.

Nico Johnson  46:45

Yeah,

Tom Matzzie  46:46

and so this is an area where we need to manage risk, and I particularly worry about the rising hostility in rural conservative communities towards our technology that is driven by a culture war, you know, because I know that the landowners, you know, Clean Choice does business with, are grateful for the relationship they have with us. Yeah, it kept the land in their family, you know, or it helped them buy the land they had to sell 20 years ago in order to pay taxes or whatever. That's a big deal. And for those families, I know we have a good story. But I want everyone in the industry to think about politics as just another area of investment they need to be like figuring out. And the better and bigger developers already do this, but everyone needs to be doing it. And we still also have, by the way, a bunch of free riders, very large companies who don't make these investments and don't do this work, and that's you know one of the challenges we have to meet.

Nico Johnson  47:51

If folks are so inclined and they want to, in some way, engage with you, be it through asynchronous or like, where do you like to be found, and where would you direct folks and direct their attention.

Tom Matzzie  48:02

I mean, I mean, look, I monitor all my socials, but LinkedIn is the one I mostly respond on, and can't easy to find

Nico Johnson  48:10

DM DM on LinkedIn. Yes,

Tom Matzzie  48:12

you can attest to that, Nico. That's how, yeah. And for professional, just if you're, with the exception, if you're trying to sell me equipment or you're a headhunter trying to, you know, sell me your services to hire someone. Maybe not the best way to reach me. I might not respond to you on that one. Yeah. But if you're another entrepreneur, or if you're someone else who, maybe somebody in the industry wants to, like, you know, get involved in some way, or you're looking for just even career feedback or whatever. I like to talk to people.

Nico Johnson  48:39

Yeah.

Tom Matzzie  48:40

I am. I am a little more press shy than I used to be when I was in politics, and so I think Nico, you've now gotten the second podcast ever of my entire business career. I will try. No, I will try to. Well, you've got a fancy

Nico Johnson  48:55

mic now, so I will try to get you on more podcasts, Tom.

Tom Matzzie  48:58

Actually, actually, let me correct you. I think the third. Okay, but the last one there was one recent last six months, but the last one before that was 10 years ago. Wow.

Tom Matzzie  49:06

Um. So. Um.

Nico Johnson  49:08

Oh, we got to do a better job getting you out there, Tom.

Tom Matzzie  49:10

But yeah, LinkedIn's the best way to reach out to me if you're if you want to connect. And um, I really appreciate everyone. You know the support they're giving the political effort, and I think we should all be really proud of our industry. And that's the other part of you know the don't mess with solar message, right? Is everyone should be proud of being part of the solar industry. We are a remarkable American success story of an industry that didn't exist two two decades ago and was much smaller one decade ago, and now we are the dominant form of new energy generation in the United States and globally. We should be proud of that. We

Nico Johnson  49:51

absolutely should. Tom, thank you. You have the ear of many CEOs in this industry right now. If you had one thing. That you want them to take away, or one message that you want to make sure that they take from this and disseminate in their team. What would it be

Tom Matzzie  50:05

for the CEOs? I want them to communicate to everyone who you know in their organizations, their investors, their boards that we should keep investing and growing this industry, and that includes investments in politics and public affairs, and that the growth of the industry does rise all boats, and we have to, we can all benefit from that.

Nico Johnson  50:27

Well, also the Warriors, there you heard it, Tom Matsy. Thank you so much for taking time to be here with us on SunCast.

Tom Matzzie  50:32

Thank you,

Nico Johnson  50:33

and thank you for tuning in all the way to the end. I really appreciate this time that you've given us, not lost on any of us, that it is the only resource that you won't get back. There's plenty of lessons in here about entrepreneurship, leadership, team building, scaling a business. But the idea that I will be chewing on for many days now is that industries don't become influential simply because they're growing, simply because they're making money and adding jobs. They become influential because they learn how to tell the story of the power they have carved out for themselves. Whether you agree with Tom's conclusions or not, I hope today's discussion challenged you to think differently about your role and each of our role in shaping the future of this industry that we all care so deeply about. Because ultimately, the energy transition won't be built by projects. It's built by people. If this conversation sparked a thought for you, challenged an assumption, or gave you a new lens through which to view our industry, I would love if you would do me a favor. Go meet with Tom and I in LinkedIn or X or Truth Social and share this conversation or a snippet of it on your favorite social media platform, tag us and let us know that this conversation was meaningful for you. These kinds of conversations are why I built SunCast. It's why this work means so much to me. As always, you'll find the resources, highlights, and all the other links like InvestTomorrow.org in the show notes and at SunCast Media. If you haven't already, please leave us a rating and a review. Not because I'm begging for reviews, but because it helps smart people like you find this show, so that the algorithm knows that we are making a difference. It truly helps more than you can imagine. Remember, you are what you listen to. Thanks again for showing up, Solar Warrior. It's half the battle.

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