Nico Johnson  00:00

Battery demand is rising rapidly. We hear about electrification and EV boom at every turn, but recycling the materials inside those batteries is still far from simple. Most people have no idea where these batteries go at end of life or how we extract the materials inside to give them a second life. Today we're talking about new approaches, specifically to battery identification and processing, and how that can change the economics of recycling. Sheeba Dawood is the CEO of Minerva Lithium, a local North Carolina company developing technology to identify battery chemistry before it goes into the recycling process. Sheeba, thanks for your time.

Sheeba Dawood  00:46

Yeah, thank you. Thank you for having me here.

Nico Johnson  00:47

Well, as I mentioned, obviously folks who are watching know that demand for batteries of many different chemistries, but predominantly lithium, is exploding, but our recycling systems feel like they're lagging behind, at least as a more than casual observer, I can't really point to where lithium or other battery technologies are being recycled. What actually makes the recycling process for batteries difficult?

Sheeba Dawood  01:11

Yes, that's a very great question. Because battery recycling right now is one avenue that is a huge resource for recycling critical minerals from it. It's not just lithium, it's different kinds of elements, nickel, cobalt, manganese, and they have different kinds of variants. So, there is a different chemistry that is present, not just, you know, NMC. There are different variants in NMC, NMC 811 There are almost about four to five, and also LFP, LCO, NCA, so when you mix all of these batteries together and then you shred it, you have like a mixed feedstock, so there is no control on the feedstock, and with that your cost increases, your wastage increases, and the value of the output decreases, so this is a major hurdle in the recycling, and that's the reason what we are seeing today is there are many shredders who are, you know, shredding the batteries, but who is making value out of it, increasing the value out of it. Where is true circular economy? Because just doing the recycling and then selling what you have recycled, it's not, it's not completing the loop. Yeah, it's actually part of the loop. Yeah, so there is no circular economy here. So that's where recycling is really struggling. It's.. I would also say this is a reason. This is also because of shortsightedness. We really did not understand, you know. We just thought, oh, these are already available, and we can do it. Oh, yeah, but yeah, mixed feedstock is a major challenge, and right now we do not really see any value coming out of from recycling suppliers.

Nico Johnson  02:52

I would imagine as well, there just isn't enough volume for solitary feedstock. There's not enough lithium or LFP to justify a single source or solitary feedstock. You, however, identified that there was a missed step in the in the waste stream and the processing of, and you flipped the model on its head. Can you tell me a bit more about the way you think about the steps that need to precede the shredding of it at all.

Sheeba Dawood  03:22

Yes, so now, how does the recycling work? Recycling works with battery collection, and then battery transportation, and then shredding it, dismantling, and shredding it.

Nico Johnson  03:35

Yeah,

Sheeba Dawood  03:35

and that's how you are able to get mixed feed stock,

Nico Johnson  03:37

right?

Sheeba Dawood  03:38

And then you begin to, after getting that mid feedstock, that's when you begin to think how to sort them.

Nico Johnson  03:45

Yeah, how do we separate all this? Yes.

Sheeba Dawood  03:46

So this is a current practice, and that's the reason we are failing. So, in order to address that, we went behind the supply chain, and that's where actually there is a solution, actually, and that can be solved by chemical fingerprinting.

Nico Johnson  04:00

Okay,

Sheeba Dawood  04:01

so this chemical fingerprinting will help you to separate types of batteries from each other, and that way they go into respective bins. And this technology comes along with XRF and X-ray technology, and also data analytics. So, combining these two technologies, what we are bringing is you're able to sort the batteries in their respective bins based on the chemistry, and that's how, when you shred, you know you're dealing with a known feed stock.

Nico Johnson  04:30

You started this business as a PhD student. What drove you to this as the logical exercising of your free will and intellect when you are going through the process of getting a doctoral degree. Obviously, it was, it was tied to your research, but it still takes a level of conviction around being able to solve a problem before you step out of the lab and form a company. Can you talk to me about that entrepreneurial journey for yourself?

Sheeba Dawood  04:59

Yeah, sure. So I did my PhD, I think, in 2016 and I did it in nano science, and even before that I worked in Australia, and it was University of Queensland, and I did my masters there. But anyway, that I travel, I know the value that I bring in the lab. Yeah, but will the world realize it? No, until and unless it's a product.

Nico Johnson  05:21

Yeah,

Sheeba Dawood  05:22

so that always stayed with me, because wherever I travel, everyone are like, what are you doing, and I'm like, I'm scientist, they're like, okay, but on a daily basis, what does a doctor do? He saves people life, it's known, it's appreciated, acknowledged. And in the same way, engineer, what does he do? It's acknowledged, but what does scientist really bring to the table is something that I was like, I really need to get into the world and show what I do, and I carried along that with me. And thanks to UNCG University from Greensboro, when I joined in, there were a lot of pitch competitions, and learn to tell your technology to normal people, they need to understand, and I used to win every, every competition.

Nico Johnson  06:03

You won every competition, every

Sheeba Dawood  06:04

other competition, from my first with this

Nico Johnson  06:07

idea, or just with lots of ideas,

Sheeba Dawood  06:09

lots of ideas. And then, when I went to my professor, who is currently the co-founder, and she also had, you know, similar, similar ambition, you know, when the ambitions come together, so she looked at my passion, and I said she always watched me whenever I talked to her, more than in research terms. I'm like, you know what, we can also do this. Yeah, see, she, so she always looked at my passion, and with that, I almost participated in 14 to 15 conferences. Wow, just during my PhD, I was always out there

Nico Johnson  06:39

speaking, and okay, engaging.

Sheeba Dawood  06:41

Yes, learning, networking.

Nico Johnson  06:43

Where does this desire for it's not super common for a scientist and engineering mindset to want to be out in public or to make the connection. I thought, as someone who has more commercial sort of aspiration, that it was a natural instinct, I've learned from my engineering friends, it's not a natural instinct. What do you attribute that to?

Sheeba Dawood  07:08

I would say, like I told you from my experience, where I was very limited with the value that I bring in, so that hunger always stayed with me, sure, and also from my first year PhD, and I think whoever is watching this, students should really get this from me. From my first year, I went to conferences with a business card.

Nico Johnson  07:32

Oh, yeah,

Sheeba Dawood  07:32

yes,

Nico Johnson  07:33

yeah, I was. It was in grad school that I created my first business card,

Sheeba Dawood  07:36

exactly. Yeah,

Nico Johnson  07:37

same.

Sheeba Dawood  07:38

Yes, but

Nico Johnson  07:38

I guess I'm thinking more along the lines of how you grew up, or if there were entrepreneurial influences in your family, like what do you attribute this aspiration that not only do I need to do important work, but people need to know about it, because, like a doctor, I intend to save lives.

Sheeba Dawood  07:57

Yes, from my family, yes, definitely. Back in India, my mom and my dad, they have schools, so they have education, and through that I have always watched them having those administrative skills. And when they asked me, 'Do you want to take up school? I said, 'No, I want to do something big. Yeah, I said that to them. You did. So when I got into research, I was like, this has so much of value. How do I bring this into the world? And definitely, there are many aspects to it that you know, that satisfaction of achieving something, which is not very common.

Nico Johnson  08:32

Yeah,

Sheeba Dawood  08:33

you know, that, that, that always drives me, even today, that drives me. And also, standing out, not not really fitting into everything, because when they said nanotechnology, I said, "Oh, this is something new, I want to get into this. Very cool. And then I went into science. When no one was into entrepreneurship, I was like, "No, I need to get into this. So it was always choosing untraditional paths, exploring, and making, you know, when you show people that I don't like really stereotypes, when you put me into a box and say you cannot do this, that's what challenges. Oh

Nico Johnson  09:05

yeah,

Sheeba Dawood  09:06

and then I'm like, I'll show you, I

Nico Johnson  09:07

love it.

Sheeba Dawood  09:07

You are calling me scientist, I'll become a CEO. So that's a driving force always when you put me on a spot, that's what I'm like. No, I don't like this, I want to do, I want to show you that I can also do this. That has been a huge driving force.

Nico Johnson  09:21

Thank you. That was such a wonderful answer. The concept behind the technology that you're bringing to market is this notion of traceability, right? Actually, knowing what material materials you're processing, it's not a black mass, it is a black mass of specific constituents in specific parts. How does that improve the economics of refining and recycling?

Sheeba Dawood  09:43

Yeah, so today if we look into plastic industry, yeah, and it's economically doing well, there's a circular economy that is created in the system. Why? Because there's a traceability, because with traceability comes transparency, and with transparency. Fancy, we know even the prices depends upon the transparency. Okay, but today, How are we even quoting the price of black mass? Who is doing it?

Nico Johnson  10:08

Yeah,

Sheeba Dawood  10:09

because there's no transparency. I mean, we don't know the data, so that's where this chemical fingerprinting system creates that whole data, which is available. It's more or less a part of a sub segment of a battery passport, sure, like having a battery passport. Where is this coming from? Which OEM is, you know, we are getting it from, and where is it going? So, having the traceability and also adding more onto the economy, like I said, because of this consistent feed stock, there is like increase in the value, like the cost of the minerals, yeah, and then minimizing the imports of virgin materials, yeah, right. So you can minimize that, because the value here is increasing, sure. And then you know, wastage of reduction of waste, waste streams.

Nico Johnson  10:57

I'm trying to wrap my head around where in the commercial cycle and the economic stack it fits, because I'm not clear if it's a process, if it's a protocol. How do you sell it up or downstream? Is it a technology that you've developed? Is it a protocol that can be applied? Yes, in this vertical, but in other elements as well. Like, is this something that you would license to others versus try to own the technology and sit at a place in the commercial stack?

Sheeba Dawood  11:30

I like that. We basically want to do licensing because it's not, if you look into into the whole supply chain, battery collection, battery storage, battery transportation dismantling and then recycling. Everyone needs us. Yeah, so everyone needs us, and for that we would license it, and also this also has capability of expanding into railroads too. Yeah, is it

Nico Johnson  11:53

something where it will become a standard, and what I mean by protocol, a process standard is today to get a 600 volt product into the market to sell it you have to have a UL certified product. Is there a future state where to be able to recycle a battery it has to have gone through an ML certified process?

Sheeba Dawood  12:20

Yeah, and that's what we are creating here. Okay, so that's the part of the battery chemical fingerprinting. Yeah, so you know, and I mean, like, when we get it from OEMs, and that's the reason we are also looking into OEM vertical integration, okay? Because many OEMs are right now, I cannot take names, but many OEMs are currently looking into vertical integration, because what they're giving out, they also want to resize, of course, they have garage filled with their used batteries, have no idea what to do with that, and that's where we create even like a system there and a certification there, and that would help even the others who are working on it, because we do chemical fingerprinting, there is also something called physical fingerprinting too, because the life, the life charge of the battery is also very important, so it also gives information along the line for the downstream players. Yeah, yeah.

Nico Johnson  13:10

Does being able to identify this chemical fingerprint in some way improve the overall safety of the industry?

Sheeba Dawood  13:15

Yes, because what does mixed batteries do when you put all the dump, all the back, either interact, and they all will obviously, they have mixed chemistries, and mixed chemistries create thermal, they have different thermal properties. Yes, and there could be thermal runaway, so that's where you know this battery chemical fingerprinting, and that's the reason I said in the whole supply chain everyone actually needs it when the community wise, where are you dumping your batteries today? Right, so there in there is a need for sorting bins, and that way you can separate and actually minimize fire fire hazards as

Nico Johnson  13:53

we move into an era where EV adoption and grid storage are scaling, and adoption is something that we consider at this point. If we look globally, a foregone conclusion like we are moving into a battery-powered world. What does the recycling infrastructure need to look like over the next decade in order to support the kind of growth that we all need?

Sheeba Dawood  14:16

First, I would say securing the domestic supply chain, and there is definitely a lot of work needs to be done on infrastructure,

Nico Johnson  14:24

sure,

Sheeba Dawood  14:25

refining capabilities too, because if it needs to go back into battery, there is something that is very important step that is refining into battery grade, and also collaborations, collaborations among companies, collaborations with universities and federal collaborations.

Nico Johnson  14:45

Sure,

Sheeba Dawood  14:45

that would be really great.

Nico Johnson  14:47

Okay, so you mentioned domestic. If we really want to have a domestic supply chain for battery manufacturing,

Sheeba Dawood  14:51

is

Nico Johnson  14:52

there a choke point that we have to address first?

Sheeba Dawood  14:54

The choke point first is with the policies that I would say,

Nico Johnson  14:58

okay,

Sheeba Dawood  14:58

yeah, because. Was we are really, I mean, like, till yesterday lithium was in demand, and today it isn't. Yeah, so we have this, you know, we have this, we are struggling with this season of changing. So I would say that policy makers would play a very significant role here, and more than that, I would say that we have been very short sighted for too long.

Nico Johnson  15:23

Yeah,

Sheeba Dawood  15:23

now it's a time to really look into those gaps and how we could do locally, like domestically, and not as competitors coming together, but as collaborators coming together. What is that one thing that you cannot do, and I can do? And that's the message that I want to give to a lot of shredders and recyclers that you can not just monetize on the battery black mass, but which you are doing at really five times cheaper than you should do on the value that you get it. Yeah, so we are battery, we can provide battery chemical fingerprinting, and with this battery chemical fingerprinting, you actually don't separate the minerals, you can directly recycle the pecan, because it's a known,

Nico Johnson  16:06

yeah,

Sheeba Dawood  16:06

before it was unknown, we're dealing with unknown, so right now it's known, and we have also developed that technology where you're getting direct pcam, so that's the beauty of it, so we can do this part, and the remaining part, can you fill in, so that's where I feel like a lot of collaborations. When I said collaborations are needed,

Nico Johnson  16:25

Shiba, I'm really inspired by the journey that you're on, but also the general spirit of collaboration, enthusiasm, and the notion that a rising tide lifts all boats. There were so early days in recycling, and it's such a critical path component to not only ensuring a domestic supply, but ensuring that we have a good story to tell.

Sheeba Dawood  16:50

Yes,

Nico Johnson  16:51

people want to know that these batteries don't have the kind of end of life that we all fear they might, which is going to a landfill, etc. Thank you for helping bring technology to the world that can genuinely save lives and can genuinely move our electrified world forward. Sheeba Dawood is the co-founder and CEO of Minerva Lithium. Thank you for joining us.

Sheeba Dawood  17:13

Thank you.

Nico Johnson  17:14

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